Cemper's Link Building and SEO Podcast

Cemper's Link Building and SEO Podcast

The best of Cemper's webinars on Links, Link Audit and Link Building


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00:00:12: Oh right this is Christoph Cemper with my Link Building and SEO podcast and I got a great new guest.

00:00:20: In the show name is Stephan Spencer. Stephan who are you what is your background history how do you connect to a cell link building think I was supposed to see company do or companies.

00:00:31: What's a lot of questions all at once okay so where do we start let's start with the in the very beginning,

00:00:39: back in the nineties I was a graduate student at the University of Wisconsin-Madison studying biochemistry,

00:00:46: and I decided to drop out of my PhD and start an agency so that was not Concepts that ran it for 15 years and I sold it to covario and 2010 so I buy successful exit.

00:00:59: And I also am in the process.

00:01:03: Invented a technology platform for SEO that allowed us to charge on a cost-per-click basis very Innovative at the time I invented that 2003 so we were doing cost per click on SEO using reverse proxy.

00:01:17: And charging $0.15 a cleric and we had clients likes a potion Nordstrom pretty amazing and yes,

00:01:24: we are making a lot of money versus the Consulting.

00:01:29: I like seven figures a year from one client and in Click Revenue yeah those.

00:01:35: I was pretty fun and said I was a big reason why my company might,

00:01:39: previous Company Net Concepts got acquired was because of that technology called gravity stream I also am the co-author of the art of SEO I have xe3 books with O'Reilly Google,

00:01:51: power search is another one and social e-commerce this is the third one so,

00:01:56: yard of SEO is probably the one I'm most known for its in its Third Edition now and it's nearly a thousand pages so it's thick Tom it is the Bible.

00:02:08: Search engine optimization so that's me in a nutshell what else did you have that you.

00:02:15: Your bridesmaid.

00:02:16: Salata right.

00:02:18: Yeah okay.

00:02:19: No that was another ride yeah yeah yeah the face shield for those who don't know that one I think you don't we.

00:02:27: Good features with link research tools and Link detox there in the second edition or I'm not exactly sure when that started especially now with all these eight years when did the first out of a seal get published.

00:02:40: 2009 so I don't think it was the first edition it was the second for sure and then of course the Third never going to take it out of the box or.

00:02:52: Work on the fourth edition which will happen this year or will of course.

00:02:56: Beef up your link research tool section cuz you guys of innovated the last Edition is for 2015,

00:03:06: Edisto mostly relevant but it doesn't include some things like Camp isn't in there and drank brain and so forth but it's it's still a great book.

00:03:15: Yeah I'm biased.

00:03:16: Cool cool well I think you had a redfish going to cool off of walls.

00:03:21: Yeah yeah for the first two editions see he dropped off for the thirties just too busy.

00:03:28: It is actually in the speaker room at SCS Toronto that grand and I.

00:03:37: Started chatting about doing a book together and that's where this all started we were going to do the SEO cookbook.

00:03:44: With O'Reilly and we started work on that together and end it all it all started when I spoke it,

00:03:52: the first SMX Advanced and apparently I really impressed.

00:03:58: Ran I'm impressed a lot of people have ever given a super awesome secrets in the give it up panel at the SMX pantsed and then,

00:04:07: ran comes up to me I didn't I've never talked to before comes up to me in the speaker room a few weeks later at this he has Toronto give me a hug,

00:04:17: the nice to meet you that's awesome and then we just started chatting and we decided let's do a book together and then we contacted by Danny Sullivan who happened to be at bootcamp at the time Friendsville O'Reilly conference and,

00:04:31: he said well let me go talk to some of these O'Reilly folks since I'm here and see if they want to do a book with you and know that you're in so it was that easy within a few days,

00:04:43: of that chat we had a book deal.

00:04:47: And then became the art of SEO we teamed up with Jesse and then I brought in Eric A year later to finish the book cuz it's installed so long history but it's it's been a great.

00:04:59: Labor of love I think we probably collectively earns minimum wage working on it but.

00:05:06: It's a gift to the industry.

00:05:08: Well if you have this one product that uses service trucks at the job 7 figures for eight-year-old year pipeline for big thighs and then you know you could have all too it's a Labor of Love Project like this right.

00:05:23: That I suppose but you know that technology is no longer mine it belongs to Rio SEO now which was the spin-off from covario cell,

00:05:33: whatever happened after 2010 who knows cuz I left shortly after getting acquired but then.

00:05:41: And I still do Consulting I work with clients ones that are fun and interesting and,

00:05:47: challenges mental challenges like I work with Chanel and Zappos again and.

00:05:57: Who also Sony store Quicksilver CNBC Bloomberg businessweek so those have been some of my clients post-acquisition.

00:06:08: Wow.

00:06:09: But let's not talk about meeting let's let's get some value to our listeners some ninja stuff that will blow their minds.

00:06:18: Yes see that's the thing you know I tip a takeaway that you can share for people doing a show or maybe and I having a chance to acquire such large companies obviously you have a lot of visibility by yourself a history and by your personality already but you know,

00:06:33: on the one hand the question is you know what kind of biggest issues to fix the you see in large companies or someone could step in our wives were so how can you.

00:06:43: Get into a big companies in the first place you don't get someone to teach the right people to to to get your SEO and an online marketing skills.

00:06:53: Yes so let's start with if you are a big company or working a big company what are the biggest challenges.

00:07:01: I think there's a lack of visibility into what is really going on like for example when I do a link audit as part of my.

00:07:14: Comprehensive SEO audit resection Seattle the technical SEO out of the content audit and the link audit.

00:07:21: I'm looking for a lack of diversity and the themes of the linking sites and the types of science the TL Dee's top-level domains the,

00:07:33: power trust metrics and all that sort of stuff I'm looking for a lack of diversity because if it's not sufficiently diverse it looks engineered like you.

00:07:44: Essentially bought those laying so I bought the services that.

00:07:48: Yield of those links so that is a very common issue where the client has no idea that these things are going on a run to link detox how much does a.

00:08:01: Crescent Great tool of yours and,

00:08:04: allows me to triage and see what's going on if they have a lot of toxic links or suspicious links that need to be,

00:08:14: reviewed valuated then,

00:08:17: they got disability into this now suddenly they know that oh wow this is this is an issue we had no idea so exposing all that and then setting up a road map a game plan for them to execute on.

00:08:30: Cuz it seems,

00:08:32: owner of send like a black box like how do I deal with the fact that Mike I'm in the Red Zone in link to talk I didn't even know that that was a thing you know and so,

00:08:45: breaking it down for them providing a roadmap and always do like a three-month rolling road map so they know what at least the next several months are going to be focused on,

00:08:56: and I try to focus not just on.

00:09:00: Clean up if there are issues sometimes he's bigger clients don't have issues with cleanup it's more like let's find you a better.

00:09:09: More authoritative more trusted links.

00:09:12: Hi hi trust links instead of just leaving it to chance or doing.

00:09:18: The kind of the more basic fundamental sort of Link building where you request.

00:09:28: Yeah just getting into people's expert roundups in that sort of thing is not exactly amazing so how do you.

00:09:37: Up level and I teach them how to do that how to create link.

00:09:42: Building campaigns content marketing campaign is essentially that their link worthy that have the potential to go viral.

00:09:52: By gum I had a successful campaign a while back for overnight prints.com business cards for Life contest that did really well on.

00:10:03: They just have to find a hook or an angle and in that case the hook was that Jeremy schoemaker,

00:10:10: AK shoe money. Famous bloggers in Internet marketer,

00:10:15: internet celebrity was the MC of the spokesman of that contest.

00:10:23: And the contest was focused on designing Jeremy's new business card love the contest to the charge my client any money to run it on his blog and promoted on his YouTube channel and everything and my client went from nowhere for business cards to number 2.

00:10:37: Wow.

00:10:39: So worked now I'm not every campaign is going to be home run like that so you have to kind of just do a rinse and repeat and.

00:10:46: I sent you through a bunch of mud against the wall and see what sticks so I aim for at least.

00:10:52: View contact marketing campaigns a week they could be really simple like listicles and personality tests quizzes infographics,

00:11:03: checklist worksheets cheat sheets that sort of stuff that are easier to do and be a few hours at work some good,

00:11:11: curation work finding some stuff videos to embed into a blog post in your cradle next listicle.

00:11:21: You got more involved campaigns got to do as well she had a mix those in like the contest or competition the scavenger hunt all sorts of.

00:11:32: More involved things that might and incorporate ugc user-generated content into the campaign cuz then you get higher quality.

00:11:41: Stuff if you get it on mass and then you can cherry pick the best stuff.

00:11:49: Salsa mix am now if you are targeting a big company and you want to get in.

00:11:56: Are the best way to do that is to build your Authority.

00:12:00: And the ways I've done that through podcasting like we're doing right now she can be a guest on other people's podcast I use a service called interview connections.

00:12:14: There are multiple services that do this sort of thing that either get you want podcast as a guest or the fine guest for your podcast and they charge a fee for that so.

00:12:26: So that's a service that's great so you can have your own podcast like you just started and that's awesome I'm a big fan of podcast thing,

00:12:35: against me opportunities to talk to really high-profile people.

00:12:41: Life example of interview Dan Kennedy Godfather of direct mail he's a big deal.

00:12:49: Also interview Jay Abraham a hedge Abraham interview me as well so that was an awesome episode that's a great idea by the way.

00:12:57: Killer idea Christoph is if you can get somebody who is a huge name to interview you about link building.

00:13:07: And put that on your show.

00:13:09: Or I could come to your show then to your podcast.

00:13:11: Oh I'm not that big of a deal.

00:13:13: Okay okay.

00:13:14: But what I'm saying is like.

00:13:16: Yes sir Jay Abraham is kind of The Godfather of Market Amy's he's a huge deal he's amazing and he's been around forever.

00:13:26: So having an episode where I interview him is great,

00:13:29: like that that doubled my listenership just that one episode.

00:13:35: Granted he did send an email to his big West promoting that episode so that was really nice of him to do that and about a year later I had an episode where he interviewed me.

00:13:48: So you have somebody a big name like Seth Godin or Brian Tracy or somebody interview and you Christoph and then you put that on your show.

00:13:56: People like wow that's a big deal.

00:14:00: Yeah yeah.

00:14:01: That's great position except anything that will build your Authority positioning will help you get in as a potential vendor.

00:14:11: These large companies of speaking at conferences I've spoken at thousands of conferences over the last two decades.

00:14:20: To the best ones included shop.org internet retailer.

00:14:25: Contoh marketing world they're just there a lot of them out there and you just have to pick your audience and try to go after conferences where you're not just another.

00:14:38: Have the same kind of vendor so SMX is great and you are just,

00:14:45: Awash with all sorts of other SEO you go to something like content marketing world and you're just one out of a very small number of us he owes at that conference and if you're speaking you stick out me,

00:14:58: speak early in the conference and your celebrity / Authority for the whole rest of the conference.

00:15:03: Okay got it so is it going to be short going going against mainstream on that conference.

00:15:13: Yeah so you got to be remarkable just like your sucked on the size and purple cow is Mel B worth remarking about that you do this in the conference circuit,

00:15:22: and so you speak you speak at conferences where you are going to be the only.

00:15:31: Right not just another me too but the only.

00:15:35: And if it's an SEO conference you gotta figure out a way to be the only there so yeah I know you were just at Brighton SEO how do you be the only.

00:15:44: Link Builder or the only.

00:15:47: Link technologist or it like you find and nice where you're the only there now.

00:15:54: Oh that's that's actually cried cried interesting feedback because I'm a lot of call friends as there are so many.

00:16:00: A different topics that link building got a lot more nice or a lot more specialized you know with all these years that we've been working in Lincoln that is his link building link detox healthy.

00:16:12: Just to get over the last month we we lost so many new features that are for many uses about their head when I realize in customer success in marketing and in talking to customers well I didn't know.

00:16:27: That this was possible required all that this is basically doing the same as you know and it's so anyway the specialization that we have anyways with links and Link building.

00:16:38: Seems to be an all natural it developing into more more special skill if you want,

00:16:47: the same is true for outrage I was about to ask you before you know for your all your companions are you do your alteration without when I talk to people how they do that outraged that usually say something like that Michelle and then some Gmail and all.

00:17:01: Well I love touchbox you know I'm a big fan of picture box so,

00:17:08: yeah I recommend that to clients and it's very scalable it's kind of like a salesforce.com for link Outreach and you can use it for other types of Outreach to the course for link building outraged it's fantastic,

00:17:23: the capability to build your prospect list and there you can fine-tune it so that it's a minimum threshold of Miles rank or whatever your,

00:17:34: metrica choices and you can.

00:17:38: How to prioritize from the sites that it identifies and say why I don't want,

00:17:45: webmaster at to be the first Contact in that company to reach too let's put that at the bottom of the list,

00:17:52: but the director marketing first etcetera and when she got your prospect list template Library there you can write your own template mail merge it with,

00:18:02: do the templates and you can have we can kind of delegator Outsource to,

00:18:10: people to build that that data repository that's going to be mail merge with not just the,

00:18:18: name of the person and so forth cuz that's handled by pitch box but let's say that you want to have something insightful to say so very clear that that email was hand-written.

00:18:29: And was not just templated him.

00:18:32: Stood out well that means you have to go to the site you have to have something insightful to say that makes it clear that you have been to the site that you are a human and a smart human.

00:18:44: And not trying to just get something and then always give before you get so try to add value first.

00:18:53: And don't ask for the link immediately this this is this is not a Sprint this is a marathon so figure out ways that you can add value for so for example I just got.

00:19:04: Client just have in the last 2 weeks.

00:19:08: Shut up. About them in the Denver Post now the only downside of this was.

00:19:16: The journalists would not link from the article to my client's website but they've already gotten big deals out of this.

00:19:26: This article it's all about the company and its grand opening of this building that they did and it's just it's an incredible article and,

00:19:36: the way it started was I saw that there was a Denver Post article about,

00:19:43: apartments and the rising cost of housing a few weeks earlier before the grand opening I'm like hey we got to respond to the journalist.

00:19:53: On this article.

00:19:56: And my client sent me a draft of my this is not good this just sounds like a veiled press release.

00:20:04: A short one no you have to have something insightful to say and not seem like you have an agenda here just chimed in with n and so he came back with another run at it my.

00:20:17: Nailed it and said that we didn't use pitch box or anything for that that was a laser targeted handcrafted,

00:20:26: email but it worked so we got on the radar that journalist and he said,

00:20:33: this is cray end in my my client alluded to the grand opening in that,

00:20:42: and that message and so he put other journalists put so my client in touch with another journalist who.

00:20:50: Attended the grand opening and throat this amazing article and it's.

00:20:56: It's probably their best article about the company in and all their history so this stuff can happen you just have to be.

00:21:06: Strategic about it instead of tactical tactics are great but.

00:21:13: Inns in The Art of War Sun Tzu said tactics without strategy is the noise before the feet.

00:21:19: Well said well.

00:21:22: Right so we got to be strategic about it and you add value first and amazing things can happen so pitchbox facilitates this whole process you can do this on mass you can can a semi-automatic.

00:21:36: Can you can scale it you can't completely automatic cuz you still have to show that you got a brain and that you're here and you're not a robot you're not a an algorithm you your you're human reader,

00:21:49: or if you were and she got something interesting powerful even to say.

00:21:55: Yeah this is why we can take greater with pit box off over 3 years ago already I don't remember using the first editions and went completely nuts with my campaign said it's all the funny little to hear when people complain about how.

00:22:09: This extra work is needed or the extra cost for the sophisticated solution is needed not having this fancy result and actual impact off the work,

00:22:18: and I said that I would rather go with whatever $50 about emailing Windows App instead of that and I think this is for you know.

00:22:30: This is a good example of why you need to have a Seder.

00:22:38: Percy runs for the endurance to go through the process of of higher complexity to get to a better result in the overall and,

00:22:45: I think the same is true for you know everything is so you don't me something to help it become it is that we mentioned before I see more short-term thinking and some you don't small businesses,

00:22:59: the path Tarot.

00:23:00: Yeah yeah yeah. Search that it's that old adage penny-wise and pound-foolish.

00:23:05: Well let's save a few dollars on some tools and then we'll just do it the hard way.

00:23:10: How we got to do that by hand yeah yeah yeah.

00:23:13: And then stuff gets missed it it falls through the cracks like with pitch box you can have it on send an automated follow up.

00:23:23: 10 days 14 days or whatever you said it too okay we didn't get a response let's send a follow-up what hey I'm about to hit deadline I really want include you in this article but.

00:23:33: I'm on I'm going to turn it in.

00:23:36: If you don't that I use pitchbox actually also for fighting trademark violations you know if lady talks when the link it wasn't feeling you like 2012-2013 we got this trademark paralegal Kaiser,

00:23:48: Rebecca send a little crazy trying to call but it's him think some of them even you don't think he talks.

00:23:55: Crate model Bradley mini what about the line. Roar the product and using pitch box and a proper sequence in there I could even get to know people in Belarus and White Russian.

00:24:09: Stop doing that and you know that I think you know it's are working in that country.

00:24:16: Yahoo.

00:24:16: Trademark law and an infected with my basic most impressive success from never using the automation of Paige parks in in different ways to different in all your recipients overtime it's lovely really lovely.

00:24:30: Yeah that's awesome me I've used it for like getting ebook contributions for compilation ebook of her clients are just different things.

00:24:43: Aura or making people aware of how well you know what the Brows extensions that we have to Chrome extensions for link redirect race and for the CO2 above the shoulder and the team metrics,

00:24:55: this was also quite an interesting use kiss just to made up people to show them you know that it's there it's a,

00:25:01: Halo Halo 3 laser target promotional free stuff but you know,

00:25:08: with intent of getting people to talk about at the promoter than that this help us during the launch last year for all.

00:25:14: Yeah I think the trick though is to make it more relevant to Their audience because yeah that's that that's relevant,

00:25:22: generically but if Their audience let's say I don't know industrial engineers.

00:25:31: And you provided examples where an industrial engineering company could use it to get more PR.

00:25:40: Tyga okay this is highly relevant okay and if it's not like you blasted this out to 10,000 companies you,

00:25:50: I have something very focused on my niece and that's a little bit more work because then they have to create it for all these different issues have but.

00:25:59: You'll get way more up up up take from Arab you know you'll get more play from it more more people will say yes to featuring you.

00:26:07: Well in my case you don't wanna talk about this free products test was easy because there are projects that she's actually the reason,

00:26:15: why I built my own because the other ones were broke and I didn't handle the broken logging an HDPE head us properly and,

00:26:23: they've been rough for 5 years so I just did a back and profile and liquor search tools looked at the link to that other extension and the company of that are extension to send all these people an email and say hey I got something that is the only reason ability because of this this this this this you want to give this a try so.

00:26:42: That was basically everyone who used it out extension already and will give it a try and so no installs.

00:26:51: Call dr. Dennis really fast on autopilot basic and the links came of course with that.

00:26:58: So hot so what what's what's figure out how to take it even another level up what say that you wanted to get on TV with talking about.

00:27:08: Your your tools Stephan now that's a whole other ballgame I'm even getting a major newspaper is hard but TV.

00:27:18: That's that's like I had 11 TV appearances last year and there's a whole process involved they yeah yeah.

00:27:27: Got a cold calling cold emailing TV producers just like you would for the webmasters but.

00:27:35: It's a different process and you have to come in really strong and.

00:27:40: Differentiate yourself and have a hook that is timely that's local that's even emotional.

00:27:50: Ex example the hook that made it time late like I got on a good morning Arizona.

00:27:59: Last year I choose Phoenix as a top 20 market so it's kind of a big deal to get on TV in Phoenix this is a morning new show.

00:28:11: Good morning Arizona and I called called them.

00:28:15: I called the TV producer followed up with an email with the the segment proposal I had to have a great Hawk I had to make a timely make it local and have,

00:28:27: something that was engaging.

00:28:30: Beyond just timely in local Ikea I got a new book out it's just been released him on a book tour and I'm going to be hitting your city so it's timely it's local but there's no emotional hook.

00:28:43: So one of the emotional hooks is I'm going to transform your host on TV live.

00:28:51: And I'm going to turn them into the ultimate geek I'm going to bring all these gadgets I'm going to bring my Comic-Con costume the Iron Man patriot costume that work,

00:29:03: comecon and we're going to make your host the ultimate geek,

00:29:07: yes I got sleep tracker strapped on their forehead and all this other stuff and they loved it.

00:29:15: So that emotional hug me for great TV so how do you Christoph take this idea of like you got this great set of tools but.

00:29:25: It's not going to be of interest to a general audience on TV but you will take your business to another level if you get lots of TV appearances.

00:29:35: Trust me on.

00:29:36: That's a good point that's a good point let me think about that.

00:29:39: How can.

00:29:40: Well it's for 29 minutes now.

00:29:45: Yeah yeah yeah.

00:29:45: This is like yet another check it went way beyond my my you know what I'm bout to do I tried to keep this short and sweet and 10 of 50 minutes maybe,

00:29:54: breakfast options one favorite trick or table gold nuggets that can make it isn't as Rich overnight you know Fairfield region,

00:30:03: Beauty and whatever no Lifehacker something.

00:30:09: Stephan sleeptracker sleep this report we had this conversation.

00:30:14: Okay so one of my go-to resources it is so.

00:30:22: Vendors and experts consultants and so forth are a backbone to any business cuz you can't be expert at everything.

00:30:33: So if you have a process for finding amazing people.

00:30:39: And amazing companies so I'll start for example I might ask on the Facebook group internet marketing Super Friends for recommendations on a vendor in a particular area what's a I don't know.

00:30:53: Infographics or explainer videos or whatever it so I get all these.

00:31:01: Recommendations but then how do I screen these folks,

00:31:05: what I do I'm a whole process on I also will put out if I'm looking for like a full-time person or something I'll put out a job advert on.

00:31:16: Different city craigslist's and then some other places as well but include a riddle and the job advert which cuts down on the a lot of the noise one of the,

00:31:27: Riff Raff won't bother responding to the to the instructions and Fountain and solving the riddle,

00:31:36: and if they don't Solve the Riddle then this is it automatically deleted I have a process where they're trick questions answered in the interview if they get to the.

00:31:45: Interview stage so their questions I even have a document of trick questions if you're looking to hire an SEO.

00:31:53: Use these trick questions amazing and it's a great starting point for creating other trick questions too if you know if you things about us you know if you are an SEO and I'm here.

00:32:06: Can I get interviewed then.

00:32:10: Use the opposite like make sure that you stand out from the rest become remarkable compared to the other people that they're interviewing by.

00:32:20: Offering these answers I don't know only you could answer right so it would for example of a task.

00:32:29: What's your favorite SEO to all.

00:32:31: And no they didn't say like research tools those already strike against them but then they said Majestic and then oh okay Majestic,

00:32:40: tell me about more about Majestic Lake for sample what's the metric,

00:32:44: does the main metric the use and I'm just kind of leading the witness here right enough and he took the bait and he said AC rank.

00:32:53: And white okay so the interview was already over he just didn't know it.

00:32:59: Cuz it's stressful and take patient phone has been,

00:33:02: years and he just blew the interview so if this is your favorite SEO tool and clearly you haven't been on there for a couple years since you're talking about a metric that's been deprecated wait 3 years ago okay.

00:33:15: Yeah what's up we going to wrap this up here pretty quick but the.

00:33:20: You can come again I think I'll have you again in the future episode if you.

00:33:25: Oh good good okay so I made the cut.

00:33:31: Okay cool alright well then wrap it up I say thank you very much different Spencer out of SEO.

00:33:40: And we can talk more in a future episode all of you at home or in the car listening to this with you wonderful day or night or weekend my name is.

00:33:49: Oh oh oh wait wait do you want everybody have a free gift at free.

00:33:53: Oh yeah yeah you have free gift.

00:33:55: I have a free gift you're going to love this yeah yeah yeah yeah okay so it's bitly so Vitaly /cm chapter.

00:34:06: Cmj.

00:34:08: And yes with this is sicity content marketing AKA link building chapter of the latest edition of The Art of SEO free.

00:34:16: Oh sweet that's a fourth edition.

00:34:19: Now the Third Edition the fourth edition is still in my head.

00:34:24: Got it.

00:34:26: Okay that was great that was a great giveaway High free later it's loaded with inside that is essential reading for anyone who needs a deep understanding of SEO say Seth Godin so that's that's something I watch for dads and.

00:34:40: No again you guys have a great weekend with this and I think you were much that from looking for through having you again.

00:34:49: Bye bye bye bye everyone thought about Stephan.

About this podcast

Christoph C. Cemper is a well-known and distinguished expert in SEO who started link building for clients in 2003, building the LinkResearchTools since 2006 and marketing it as SaaS product since 2009. When the famous Google Penguin update changed the rules of SEO in 2012, Christoph started Link Detox, software for finding links that pose a risk in a website’s backlink profile. He introduced ongoing link audits and risk management to the market in early 2011.

by Christoph C. Cemper


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